Episode 4: From the Trenches

SPEAKERS
Alice Hsiung, Jeremy Lucyk, Cathy Schlender

Alice Hsiung
Struggling to publish your work? Hear first-hand account of a journey to publishing, from learning the best tips for making it happen as Cathy Schlender interviews Jeremy Lucyk and Alice Hsiung.

Cathy Schlender
Hello, my name is Cathy Schlender, and I'm the manager of Corporate Communications at Centennial College. In addition to being a writer at the college, I'm a member of Centennial's writing circle, where I focus on writing fictional short stories. Joining me today is Jeremy Lucyk, and he's the publishing assistant for Centennial press, and Alice Hsiung, coordinator from Centennial's Career Services. Thank you for joining us for today's topic, from the trenches, the struggles, joys, and challenges of publishing. Ernest Hemingway said, there's nothing to writing, all you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed. Jeremy and Alice, thank you for taking the time to expand on the journey of getting published from the perspective of both the writer and the publisher. Before we get started, why don't you just tell us a bit about yourself? Jeremy, do you want to go first?

Jeremy Lucyk
Sure and thank you for having me, Cathy. My name is Jeremy Lucyk and I've been a professional editor for 12 years. I've worked for huge publishers, tiny publishers and directly for authors as a freelancer. I've edited books and magazines, articles, theses, you name it. Currently, I divide my work between Centennial College press and various freelance projects. I've also been published myself, mostly writing about the publishing process and industry so I've been on the other side of this equation as well. And on top of all of that, I teach an editing course for Centennial College's Publishing: Book Magazine and Electronic postgraduate program, of which I am myself a graduate.

Cathy Schlender
Right, and Alice?

Alice Hsiung
Thanks so much Cathy for having me here today. It's a pleasure to be speaking to our audience about being a budding author. So outside of where I'm working at Centennial College, I enjoy writing lighthearted contemporary romance novels that take place in Toronto. I caught the Creative Writing bug in junior high after getting some praise from my English teacher about the short story and poetry that I submitted for school assignments. Then, during my university days, I wrote a novella every summer. But then, unfortunately, life happened and I stopped. And now that my kids are older, I have the time to rediscover my passion, which feels great. And having gone through different life experiences has really helped me to be more confident in my writing. And currently, I'm thick in the trenches trying to get published.

Cathy Schlender
That's great. So my first question for both of you is, what can you tell budding writers, and possibly seasoned but unpublished writers about the struggles, the challenges, and on the flip side, the joys of publishing? Alice, why don't you go first?

Alice Hsiung
Sure Cathy. So, as an aspiring author, I've always dreamt of seeing my book in a bookstore one day. I want to share my make believe world with my readers and allow them to escape to a place that gives them hope. One challenge that I have is that I've been working at Centennial for almost 20 years so getting back into creative writing, it's really a struggle for me to adjust from years of academic-style writing, to contemporary and creative. Also, the time and money spent on writing, editing, and pitching, not to mention the negative feedback and rejections can be really overwhelming. And believe me, there are days when I just felt like giving up. However, in the end, I believe it's worth pursuing this lifelong goal of mine. Because there's just nothing like creating a whole novel out of nothing, it's the most incredible feeling and sense of accomplishment.

Cathy Schlender
That's great. Jeremy, what can you tell us from the editor's perspective?

Jeremy Lucyk
Well, I'll start with the joy of it, which is helping writers share their stories and ideas with the wider world. Now for new writers, it can be a challenge to move beyond the introspective and very solitary act of writing, and to open themselves to collaboration and maybe criticism as part of the publishing process. There's a real vulnerability in sharing your creativity with others. The other major challenge for new writers is bringing their work to the marketplace of ideas, and realizing that it is a marketplace. It's a world where art meets commercial considerations and that's always an awkward dynamic to encounter for the first time. And realizing that this whole process is a marathon rather than a sprint. It can take months, if not years, to actually sign a publishing contract, let alone seeing your books appear on shelves, whether physical or virtual.

Cathy Schlender
So, then what are the first steps for a writer who wants to get their book published? Jeremy, why don't you start by giving us the editor's perspective?

Jeremy Lucyk
Sure. The first thing I would stress is that there's no single path to publication. There's no particular steps that everybody has to follow in order to get their work out there. But there are certain industry expectations and realities that writers will have to understand and meet. And there are also tactics to make the entire process easier to manage. Publishing as a whole can be very mysterious and very opaque to newcomers. And it can take some time to get the lay of the land and understand what they're in for. So really, research is key at the beginning stages of this process for writers. You need to have a plan, however vague, before you start engaging with the industry and its actors. This will help you shape your approach and save you a lot of time and energy. So it's worthwhile investing some time and energy and research and self reflection. So you should be asking yourself some key questions before you begin any other steps. The first one is asking yourself, what have I written? And note I'm saying written in the past tense, because you actually have to have written something. It's no good approaching a publisher, an agent with saying, I have a great idea for a book. That doesn't really demonstrate the quality of the work that you can produce, and you're not going to get a lot of attention for that. It's worth remembering that if you're writing fiction, most agents and publishers will expect a complete first draft of a series of short stories or a novel. And if you're working in nonfiction, you need to be able to present at the bare minimum, a complete outline, a table of contents, and probably some sample chapters. The second question you should be asking yourself about your writing is, where does it fit in the marketplace? Can I find comparable, or maybe some competing titles that I can position my work up against? Have I created something wholly original or something that's following existing genres and conventions? This will help shape your approach and give publishers and agents a better understanding of who you are and what you've created. The third question you should be asking, and this is often the first one that writers ask themselves is, what do I want from my writing if it's being published? It could be like Alice, you want to see your work appear on bookstore shelves, you might want to have your work read in a classroom somewhere, or maybe be seen in the pages of a prestigious literary magazine. Maybe you just want something that's bound as a gift that you can give to family and friends. All of these ideas and goals will help shape your approach and lead you to a more tangible result. Another way to approach it is, note, is this just a rewarding hobby for me? Is this maybe potentially the source of some extra income? Or is it the means to buy a castle in France? This will really help you narrow down the focus of your efforts towards publication, and how you present your work to publishers so they also understand what your goals are. The fourth thing you should be asking yourself, and this is really about the practicalities of beginning this process, is can I find publishers or agents who are working with writing similar to my own so lot of research involved here. But this will help you come up with a plan and approach for how you might present this material to interested parties who are actively looking for writing, and give you a hit list of people that you might want to approach in a certain order. Now, when you're exploring the industry and looking at who you might work with, think as big as you want, you know, swing for the fences, go for the biggest publishers worldwide. But don't necessarily limit yourself to the most famous or recognizable names. This is often a game of probability and really, the broader your approach is, the greater the likelihood of success you're going to find. And at all stages, just keep reminding yourself, it's a marathon, not a sprint. This is a long-term process and a long term investment for you.

Cathy Schlender
That's great, thanks. So Alice, can you share your experiences as someone looking to be public, published? Can you share a bit about your personal journey?

Alice Hsiung
Sure, Cathy, thanks. So are you asking me to show you my scars and my scratches from climbing out of the trenches?

Cathy Schlender
Just the blood on your keyboard.

Alice Hsiung
So, just kidding. On a serious note, over the past couple of years, I've learned a lot the hard way about writing and trying to get published. So for example, I now create an outline of my novel as well as the main character's profiles first, before I actually start writing, which will be very helpful later on when you submit a synopsis about your novel to literary agents, so that they can represent you to publishers. Also, give your beta readers one chapter to read at a time so that you can use their feedback,  to edit and improve your novel in a timely manner. Then, hire a professional editor who gets you and has experience editing your specific genre. Don't forget to research standards in your genre in terms of expected word count, tropes, content and so on. So for instance, if you write science fiction, world building is essential. And in romance, my fave, my favorite genre, a happily ever after ending is a must. Then, just like Jeremy said, be patient, because the whole process is a marathon, from writing, to editing, to more editing, and then eventually submitting queries and receiving responses takes months, if not years. I myself had the experience of waiting for an agent to respond to me. They respond to me very quickly after I sent out my query. And that's with my full manuscript. However, took them eight months to respond to me, unfortunately, with a rejection. Lastly, and most importantly, stay true to yourself and always write from the heart. Write about things that inspire you based on your own lived experiences, rather than using plots or tropes that are trending just to please others. And that's why unfortunately, I had to turn down an offer from an agent who offered to work with me, but asked me to change the premise of my first novel.

Cathy Schlender
Wow. So that's an often, important, and sometimes painful process. The editing stage. And thinking back to Ernest Hemingway, writing is a very personal journey where your words are like your children. So Alice, what has it been like for you, when you're writing, when you're editing, when someone else edits your work?

Alice Hsiung
Yeah, so when I finished writing my first novel, I felt ready to share with the world. And so, I joined the writing circle at Centennial to meet other writers. It was very fortunate that I met Jeremy, who happened to be a guest speaker at one of our meetings. Then I reached out to him right away, to get some recommendations for a couple of editors. These professional editors were not only helpful to me to improve my manuscript, but they also actually encouraged me to consider publishing my novel the traditional way, rather than through online platforms like Amazon. From there, I researched potential agents who might be a good fit for me in terms of their genre preferences, and to be interested in representing me to publishers. Next, I crafted my career letter to prepare for submissions. Then, it was all about being patient and having a bit of luck. And after taking a bit of a break from writing, I was waiting to hear back from the agents, I chatted with my beta readers about ideas for a second novel, wrote the outline, wrote the profiles of the main characters, because one, I didn't want to lose my writing skills I had worked so hard to improve. And secondly, I wanted to have another chance of getting published just so I have a backup plan. And by the way, sometimes agents do ask about other projects that you're working on.

Cathy Schlender
So Alice, just as a follow up question. After those final edits, what it's like to finally let go of your work and actually send it to the publisher with the hopes that they're interested.

Alice Hsiung
So for me Cathy, novel writing actually comes quite naturally because I do get inspiration anywhere, and anytime. For people who know me, especially in the middle of the night when, I'm dreaming. However, I find editing difficult because it's hard to be objective about your own work. And it's a very slow process that can often feel like it's never ending. So it's really important to take breaks and nurture yourself, to fuel your creative brain and avoid writer's block. When I get the feedback from others, I try to be humble and appreciative, rather than defensive. And I try my best to incorporate their suggestions, which I know would only make my work better.

Cathy Schlender
Jeremy, what can you tell us from the perspective of a professional editor? How do you manage a writer's expectation egos?

Jeremy Lucyk
Very delicately and with great empathy. There's sort of a misconception about editors that we're ogre critics, who are just there with red pens to slash everybody else's work to pieces. Really, the attitude of a good editor should be quite the opposite. We're there to help produce the best possible version of an author's text. And I emphasize help and best possible and the authors, very deliberately. Editors shouldn't be there to correct anything, but rather to improve someone else's work, and never with a sense of assuming ownership. It's ultimately the author's work and not our own. So what you should end up with is an open and collaborative relationship. That being said, any good editor can and should be willing to challenge the author, but only if it's in the service of the text rather than the editor's ego. Similarly, all authors should be willing to stand their ground if they want to retain the truth of their own voice and their own writing, even if an editor comes after them with some pretty strong suggestions. Now, going back to that great Hemingway quote, what I usually say is that editorial work is like critiquing someone else's parent. No matter how well intentioned and well founded your suggestions might be, it's going to encounter a natural defensiveness. Any writer's work is their baby, they've poured their blood, sweat and tears into it, they naturally feel really protective about it. So for an editor to be effective as much as the content of their edits, it's important how we phrase them in a way that the author understands that we're on their side and this will ultimately be to the benefit of the author's work.

Cathy Schlender
That's great. And just so Jeremy again, can you explain the difference between traditional and self publishing?

Jeremy Lucyk
Sure. Really, there's a misconception that this is a question of quality of the work. It's really not about a question of quality between these two things. The difference comes down to issues of responsibility, workload and assumed risk. So it's more of an operational question than anything else. It's worth remembering that all publishing is a financial gamble. So the question becomes who's covering the costs of publication, who's doing the work to bring something to market and who's reaping the benefits or hopefully not, potential losses. So in a traditional publishing model, a publisher will buy or lease the rights to publish a work from an author, with or without the intercession of an agent. The publisher then, will assume all publication responsibilities except the actual writing. The publisher will take over editing, design, production, marketing, sales, shipping, anything else. In return, the author receives an agreed percentage of each sale of the work, what we call royalties. And the publisher keeps the rest to offset all those costs for the responsibilities that they've assumed. So basically, traditional publishing means less work for the author, because the publisher takes care of a lot more. But it also means they have potentially less income, because it's going to be a fixed percentage. The trade off to that though, to the authors benefit is the publisher is a professional, they know what they're doing, they have a well developed team. So they can handle a lot of this stuff that's sort of, you know, mysterious and very specific to the publishing industry. Now, in self publishing, on the other hand, the author retains all of those responsibilities and costs for publishing their work. The author is the one who pays for and organizes the editing, designing, printing, shipping, all of that stuff. So it means much more work for the author, and quite a few costs honestly, but it also means the authors can potentially retain more income and revenue from the sales of their work. Now, the downside to that is to have any sort of success with self publication, authors really have to learn the ins and outs of the entire industry and all of those different sub functions, if they want their work to succeed. Now I want to stress to that those are two sort of opposite poles, two different approaches to publication. There's really a very fertile middle ground between these two different aspects and it's provided by things like publishing service companies, or book packagers, they can call themselves whatever they want. These are individuals or organizations who, for a set fee, will basically act as publishers for hire. They'll provide the expertise and services that a traditional publisher would, but the author still retains full control and copyright over their work and responsibilities and gets to, you know, reap all the profits that might come from it afterwards. So when you're deciding between either these two poles, or some sort of middle ground between them, it comes down to asking yourself a question, which is, what do I want from publication? And what am I willing to do for it? How much effort am I going to put forward myself versus how much I might want to offload into somebody else. And it's really worth stressing that, contrary to the way a lot of people still talk about it, self publishing is not the pariah it used to be considered. Again, it's not a question of quality, all kinds of people have very big success from the self publishing route. Self publication is easier than ever, thanks to advances in technology and it's much more accepted in the marketplace. 20 or 30 years ago, self publishing meant you were selling books out of the trunk of your car at conventions. Now, it means you can be on the same Amazon page as New York Times bestsellers so those lines have really blurred. And also just because you choose one route or the other doesn't necessarily mean you're stuck with that. And truthfully, self publishing can nowadays become a gateway to digital, traditional publishing, where traditional publishers will look at people who have some track record of success through self publishing, and say, okay, we would like to step in and offer the use of our resources to create a partnership to take your>work to the next level. So there's a lot of possibilities within that realm.

Cathy Schlender
That's great. So you've both given the budding published writers a lot to digest here. Do you have any final thoughts, lessons learned, or tips you'd like to share before we go? I'll start with you Alice?

Alice Hsiung
Sure Cathy. So I have three tips I would like to share with our listeners today. First of all, find your unique voice and let it shine through in your writing, rather than try to be someone else. Secondly, get into a good writing routine, whatever that means and make sure that you write every day, even if it's only for 10 minutes a day. Because it's very easy to lose your train of thought and if you're an author like me, who writes a long novels, there's so many little details, so many chapters that if you don't write every day, the inconsistencies can really happen. And last but not least, don't give up and I cannot stress this enough. It's been a journey, it's been a marathon, sometimes really rewarding, some days really, really challenging, but continue to improve your writing. Tune into webinars, connect with people and consider dusting off your old manuscripts and making them new again until you get published traditionally, or self publish.

Cathy Schlender
That's great. Thank you and Jeremy?

Jeremy Lucyk
Yeah, I have a few things to remember. The first thing is make sure to set goals for yourself and use those to guide you through this entire process. The second would be just research, research, research, try to demystify the publication process as much as possible, figure out the options that might be available to you, they're much more varied than you might think at first, and they change all of the time. Don't be afraid to forge your own path. Just because one person tells you that you have to take these steps doesn't mean that's necessarily true, or the most appropriate path for your work. So the more you know, the more you can fine tune your approach to what's best for you and your goals. And last and absolutely most important, persevere and be patient. As we've touched on a few times, this can be a very long and potentially painful process but you never know when success, as you define it, might suddenly appear. It might be the day after you feel like giving up so it's worth sticking through it and seeing where it might take you.

Cathy Schlender
Thank you so much for both of you for joining. And thank you to our audience for joining us for our issue of From the Trenches: The Joys, the Challenges of publishing. We hope you've been inspired to begin or continue on with your publishing journey.

Jeremy Lucyk
Thank you very much for having us.

Alice Hsiung
Thanks for joining us. Thank you for joining us today. Make sure to listen and subscribe to the Centennial College podcast on SoundCloud, Apple podcast, Google podcasts and Spotify.